Remember that time we left Afghanistan
- Thread starter Crazyhole
- Start date
The images of Afghans falling off departing C-130s are absolutely gut-wrenching.
What an unmitigated disaster.
What an unmitigated disaster.
It IS gut-wrenching. But I continue to ask: what did everyone expect would happen?
Some of the same voices who said “enough is enough” when it was first announced we were withdrawing all our troops and now saying how heart-breaking this scene is. No wonder American politics is so f*ed up, the American public mood swings like a yo-yo.
Some of the same voices who said “enough is enough” when it was first announced we were withdrawing all our troops and now saying how heart-breaking this scene is. No wonder American politics is so f*ed up, the American public mood swings like a yo-yo.
Feel bad for all those soldiers who spent years trying to make a difference only to come to this.
Lol. This thread delivered. In two-weeks Americans won’t give two flying fuks about this. Americans wanted our people home…now they’re home. Afghans had the equipment, personnel, and the training to keep their country. But didn’t have the will.
Partisans will take their usual shots…that this is a huge Biden foreign policy failure…it really isn’t. The exact same thing would have happened under Trump when he wanted to do it. It was always going to happen unless we stayed there, and now it did.
Partisans will take their usual shots…that this is a huge Biden foreign policy failure…it really isn’t. The exact same thing would have happened under Trump when he wanted to do it. It was always going to happen unless we stayed there, and now it did.
Think about the mileage the images will get around the world as symbolic proof that America doesn’t care and will abandon you. How is anyone from the ME, other than Israel, going to trust us when the opposition is just going to show them how we will treat them?
Lol. The Afghan army had close to 400,000 troops. Armed, trained, fully equipped after 20 years of American assistance.
They layed down their weapons. Clearly all Biden’s fault.
The funniest thing is you pretending like you care about those poor Afghan people we are leaving behind. We know you don’t. Stop the charade.
This is a complete mess. It vindicates the argument that we never should have been there in the first place, but I have no idea how you spin this outcome. If the Afghan government and military put on a good show and it took the Taliban 2 or 3 years to take Kabul? OK - well we did our best and they failed. But Kabul overrun in a matter of days? That's on us. Either we are clueless or we knew this was going to happen and did it anyway. Either way, it's a complete and total failure.
I feel for the people of Afghanistan, and I feel for the friends and family of the KIA over the last 20 years. I feel for the Americans who have built relationships with Afghanis, trying to help them, to now see them being executed in front of their homes. A very close cousin of mine died in Afghanistan in 2009. I'm not one to romanticize a soldier's death, but I see how important it is for some people to give the death value. That it meant something because the cause was worthwhile. That in the end, the sacrifice mattered.
Seeing that entire country crumble in days is going to be very hard emotionally on those who lost loved ones over there. It's going to be hard to reconcile the value of their sacrifice with this outcome.
I feel for the people of Afghanistan, and I feel for the friends and family of the KIA over the last 20 years. I feel for the Americans who have built relationships with Afghanis, trying to help them, to now see them being executed in front of their homes. A very close cousin of mine died in Afghanistan in 2009. I'm not one to romanticize a soldier's death, but I see how important it is for some people to give the death value. That it meant something because the cause was worthwhile. That in the end, the sacrifice mattered.
Seeing that entire country crumble in days is going to be very hard emotionally on those who lost loved ones over there. It's going to be hard to reconcile the value of their sacrifice with this outcome.
I actually think it is the other way around:
If the Afghan government and military put on a good show and it took the Taliban 2 or 3 years to take Kabul? = the US should have done more to help and they would have been ok
Kabul overrun in a matter of days? = if that is the result after 20 years, there was nothing that we could have done to change the result. They were going to surrender in 2, 5, 10 years from now
If we're so sure that our way of life and respect for rights and women and lifestyles is the way to go, then maybe we should've gone full imperialism and made Afghanistan a protectorate or territory for as long as it took to calm the tribalism and get the population to learn how to live together in a union. Half-measures are always destined to fail.
It was too fast a withdrawal? The previous administration vowed to have everybody out last May.
It is all performative from guys like Jake Tapper . Biden wanted to get out in 2009 but Obama wouldn’t agree. It looks messy but I give him credit for having the balls to finally pull the plug.
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that is the thing. 350k soldiers didn’t even fight ,
Taliban literally came in to these towns on their trucks 🛻 unchallenged . That means a lot of Afghan society wants them to rule
It's another example of an advanced society trying to force its values on uneducated people one generation removed from tribalism.
The level of naivete in America's involvement in Foreign Affairs during my lifetime (by administrations of both parties) has been staggering.
That’s probably what it would take. And I’m ok with that. Because I want America to be and act like a superpower and attempt nation building/passing on western culture and that means having a presence in places forever. But that means soldiers will die and money would be spent and it might get messy at times.
But I’m a firm believer in the thought that power is a vacuum. If we aren’t attempting to export American culture and dominance, China or Russia will fill the void.
still stand by this but it is funny to see some(not all) Trumpers try to rewrite history that Trump would have suddenly pivoted to conditions based withdrawal , he was out ASAP
I agree with your last statement - if this is what 20 years got it us, it's pretty obvious there was no good outcome. But certainly, some outcomes are worse than others - right? Hard to imagine a worse outcome. The WH has to defend this decision because there is no going back. But I can't imagine Biden or anyone would do this again knowing what they know now. The status quo was far better than seeing this happen.
We STILL have troops in South Korea, Japan, and Germany and nobody says a thing. But when the national narrative is "we've been fighting a war for 20 years and counting," its no wonder that Presidential candidates of both parties are going to vow to end it once and for all.
I feel for all the Afghan women. It's one thing to be treated like dirt. But its a whole new level of horror when you've grown up understanding it doesn't have to be this way.
It’s sad. But if an American convoy was ambushed tomorrow and a dozen U.S. soldiers lost their lives, would you still be saying that?
It’s horrible for them. I don’t think we ever should have left. But I also accept that that means American soldiers will forever have the chance at losing their lives in perpetuity for a place that isn’t American soil.
Probably not. Which is my point. Optics matter. Not just in a domestic political sense, but how the world sees this matters to our ability to project strength and build coalitions in the future.
Images write history. The parting image here is not Americans fighting for the freedom of fellow humans. It's not of valiant American soldiers sacrificing their lives for the freedom of others. Instead, it's an image of American military dominance fleeing while the citizens who relied on them for safety cling to the wheels. It's absolutely devastating.
for neocons that care more about foreign policy than domestic issues
but politically it will be all about domestic issues and the economy in 2024 if he decides to run for a 2nd term
Actually, the DNC and Biden have been royally sucking in that regard.
Minorities continue to, albeit slow, move to the GOP (Trump gained both African and Hispanic Americans in both elections, percentage-wise), and most everyone has been horrified at the broken promises.
Do I think the GOP would be better? Hell no, the GOP is just as bad!
But the GOP isn't arguing a platform that now that flirts with authoritarian Soviet and central planning, let alone disarmament, when organized crime has broken $2T/year. If we disarm the populace and take down militias, there will be nothing to deter organized crime in every neighborhood.
That's why while I hate the GOP, but they are the only defense against this.
He won't make it through the end of the year. POTUS is already the most stressful job in the world, put this kind of stuff on top of it and his health won't stand up.
Especially since he was both in Congress and VP, especially when he saw the same intelligence W. did on Iraq, as well as supported Obama in Afghanistan.
About the only credit I'll give Biden is that he was diametrically opposed to Hillary on Libya, and that mess. And we call Libyan refugees 'Syrian refugees' for a political reason too ... the 'Clintons can do no wrong.'
But the current criminal justice and economical situation is due to Biden even before he was President, which is why he a few more minorities (percentage wise) to Trump, despite picking Harris as his VP.
Actually, since Biden was elected, I am hopeful he gets to fulfill his full term. Not because I don't want Harris, but regardless of who is President, I want the elected POTUS to have the opportunity to do so.
But, sadly, I think it will be President Harris before 2024.
not spinning that the optics are bad but people have left Biden dead before (NYT during the primaries ) and he has rebounded . Despite his age which is a concern he still has a lot more political talent than almost all other Dems at the national level right now
It's stupid to politicize our withdrawal from Afghanistan. One of the few things that Republicans and Democrats were united about -- with the notable exception of a few generals and other military brass -- is that we needed to get the hell out of the country once and for all.
Hell, the same posters who are proclaiming this fiasco is 'all on Biden' were arguing with me last year when I said we needed to keep a small force in the country. I was told "20 years is enough!" and "No more American lives should be lost protecting that sh*thole."
Naturally, our Usual Suspects haven't thought twice about reversing their previous positions given the opportunity to condemn Biden for this mess. It most certainly IS a mess, but it would have been an even worse clusterf*k (Trump wanted everybody gone by MAY) if Donald had won a second term.
Hell, the same posters who are proclaiming this fiasco is 'all on Biden' were arguing with me last year when I said we needed to keep a small force in the country. I was told "20 years is enough!" and "No more American lives should be lost protecting that sh*thole."
Naturally, our Usual Suspects haven't thought twice about reversing their previous positions given the opportunity to condemn Biden for this mess. It most certainly IS a mess, but it would have been an even worse clusterf*k (Trump wanted everybody gone by MAY) if Donald had won a second term.
While I agree with the first part of your statement ...
When the DNC and pro-Soviet voting left drop their non-sense, and actually look at candidates like Amy Klobuchar who point out 'eat the rich/corporations' is fun, but taxing them to death won't do much, revenue-wise, and that American freedom should trump all, we're going to continue to have issues.
I mean, let's take stock of our current + last 3, elected Presidents ...
- W. - Newer Politician, 'Guy Next Door' (and because of his Dad)
- Obama - Newer Politician, Outsider/Idealist
- Trump - Business (actually Confidence) Man with No Political Career
- Biden - Career Politician
- W. over Gore - Career Politician
- Obama over McCain - Career Politician
- Trump over Clinton - Carpetbagger, Career Politician/Married to Career Politician
- Biden over Trump - No Prior Political Career (Return to a Career Politician)
This is why I 100% blame the American voter. It's also why anyone who rises up against the system is not going to change anything. It's the will of the people ... and the people are damn idiotic, and even calling for almost an authoritative Soviet style central planning and leadership.
We're more worried about cheap goods and availability than our own future, and have been since the '90s and mass outsourcing. We're living on borrowed time ... and even more borrowed dollars.
You're responding to the usual bullsh*t, PK. Biden ain't going nowhere.
Once this all dies down, the American Public will forget about the mess they left throughout the Middle East.
For the record, anyone who says any of our Presidents did anything worthwhile in the ME is full of sh*t. The Bin Laden business should have quietly been a black ops mission and we avoided appeasing our national bruised ego by invading Afghanistan and then Iraq with our American military. Hell, I would argue the United States has done more to foster terrorism in the ME since 9/11 than prevent it.
Sadly, this is true.
Hillary's mess in Libya was forgotten.
Trump still never gets credit for Mattis' ISIL strategy.
Obama isn't seen as the 'hard on generals' he very much was.
And W. is largely not remembered for starting it all.
Yes, I agree, and so does Ron Paul, who questioned the 9/11 response a week after.
W. shouldn't have made it about the Taliban and giving up Bin Laden. Agreed.
Weird. I could have SWORN that before it was Biden's decision, it was Trump's decision to implement a withdrawal from Afghanistan even with feedback it would be a big failure.
All Biden did was extend the timeline from May to August to make for a more orderly and less chaotic transition.
But let me guess, the original withdrawal date would have gone MUCH smoother, right?*
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