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Remember that time we left Afghanistan

I actually think it is the other way around:

If the Afghan government and military put on a good show and it took the Taliban 2 or 3 years to take Kabul? = the US should have done more to help and they would have been ok

Kabul overrun in a matter of days? = if that is the result after 20 years, there was nothing that we could have done to change the result. They were going to surrender in 2, 5, 10 years from now
Exactly.

It was just like with Nixon's 'Peace with Honor,' private assurances that never happened under Ford.

The only thing I will point out is that when Trump-Mattis were exploring a treaty with the Taliban, the US Media roasted them.

In reality, it would have been far better than this.
 
not spinning that the optics are bad but people have left Biden dead before (NYT during the primaries ) and he has rebounded . Despite his age which is a concern he still has a lot more political talent than almost all other Dems at the national level right now
I'm not talking about political talent, I'm talking about the physical stress. Even if he was in perfect health it's a lot to ask a 78 year old to handle this level of stress.
 
Biden still on vacation? Even if his brain is always on vacation.
Can you please add something of substance? Anything? You’re acting like a “3rd grader.”
Although I agree with you here, at least @KNIGHTTIME^ does in other posts, at least half of them. You are right there with the shallow logic of the US Media and Trump ConMan speeches in 90% of your posts.

I'm still awaiting real leadership out of either party. At most I have to settle for Amy Klobuchar and Rand Paul, among others who question their own party's messaging at times.
 
Weird. I could have SWORN that before it was Biden's decision, it was Trump's decision to implement a withdrawal from Afghanistan even with feedback it would be a big failure.

All Biden did was extend the timeline from May to August to make for a more orderly and less chaotic transition.

But let me guess, the original withdrawal date would have gone MUCH smoother, right?*
got it, so even with 7 months in office the guy was incapable of planning a normal evacuation? I don't know what you're arguing here. This is a total and epic disaster. To the point that CNN is BBQing Blinken on tv, cuz Biden and Psaki are taking days off.

No one is arguing we SHOULD be in Afghanistan. Everyone is saying the evacuation was a disaster.
You got Afghanis holding onto the side of military planes and falling to their death man
 
got it, so even with 7 months in office the guy was incapable of planning a normal evacuation?
Yeah, we all observed how well-planned the Trump Administration carried out the President's agenda. :)
No one is arguing we SHOULD be in Afghanistan. Everyone is saying the evacuation was a disaster.
And I'm not disagreeing with that.

I'm calling BS to any Trumpet who opines that somehow this would have all been different if Trump had been in charge and we'd stuck to the original May withdrawal date. This withdrawal was doomed from the get-go.
 
Yeah, we all observed how well-planned the Trump Administration carried out the President's agenda. :)

And I'm not disagreeing with that.

I'm calling BS to any Trumpet who opines that somehow this would have all been different if Trump had been in charge and we'd stuck to the original May withdrawal date. This withdrawal was doomed from the get-go.
how so, Trump's people had been in place for 4 years. Pretty easy to think there would have been a better plan in place as they had continuity on their side. Also trump worked the deal to get out of that place.
 
Stop passing the buck. This disaster is on dementia man only. How the withdrawal was handled was inexcusable. We knew Biden isn't the sharpest tool but I thought he would listen to advisors.
he's built an amazing strawman. Biden, wasn't great, but, let me tell you with Trump (if he was there) woulda been way worse.
 
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Stop passing the buck. This disaster is on dementia man only. How the withdrawal was handled was inexcusable. We knew Biden isn't the sharpest tool but I thought he would listen to advisors.
I'm not so sure that he's got the best advisers.
 
he's built an amazing strawman. Biden, wasn't great, but, let me tell you with Trump (if he was there) woulda been way worse.
I'm curious. Explain to all of us how Trump's evacuation in May would have been different. Inquiring minds want to know.
 
I'm curious. Explain to all of us how Trump's evacuation in May would have been different. Inquiring minds want to know.
I'm not, I don't need to. Trump isn't in charge. Your reliance on building strawmans to deflect blame on the guy who's actually in charge is strange. COVID vaccinations not hitting Biden's expectations, Trump's fault. Gas prices reaching decade long highs, trump's fault. Failed evacuation of Afghanistan, Trump's fault.

So the 4 years on office, anytime anything went wrong was Trump's fault.
Also, now, every issue that happens post him leaving office, also his fault.

I guess whatever makes you feel better sleeping at night, while voting democrat cuz they care about immigrants (while they are thrown from planes to their death), but hey Trump's fault on that too.
 
There needs to be an actual investigation. We believe he was told this would happen. We have a large group that supported us that will be slaughtered. We have our own personal stuck. This was 20 years destroyed by Biden in his short 7 month time.
Blinken was on CNN basically throwing Biden under the bus in an interview with Jack Tapper.

Edit, this link has the full video:

 
We have a large group that supported us that will be slaughtered.
LOL. Suddenly NOW you're concerned.

 
Like every president they can pivot based on Intel like Trump did with Syria.
Trump's advisors told him he should keep a force in Afghanistan. Trump refused saying it was time to bring the troops home. The Usual Suspects here all wholeheartedly agreed with Orange Man.

Tell me guys, who was it who signed the peace agreement with the Taliban leading to the withdrawal? And who ANNOUNCED THE WITHDRAWAL DATE months in advance?

I could have sworn I recall Candidate Trump saying how stupid it would be to announce our plans to the enemy in advance.

BUT if he'd stayed in office Trump would have pivoted and not withdrawn afterall??? That's the best you've got?

Partisan BS at its Best.
 
It IS gut-wrenching. But I continue to ask: what did everyone expect would happen?

Some of the same voices who said “enough is enough” when it was first announced we were withdrawing all our troops and now saying how heart-breaking this scene is. No wonder American politics is so f*ed up, the American public mood swings like a yo-yo.
Getting out was the right move, but holy shit… does this look like anyone put ANY thought into how it should be done?

It looks like absolutely nothing was thought out beforehand and no steps were taken to make it somewhat successful in extracting necessary people and assets.

Make no mistake, this was one of the biggest clusterf*cks in American foreign policy history.
 
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Trump's advisors told him he should keep a force in Afghanistan. Trump refused saying it was time to bring the troops home. The Usual Suspects here all wholeheartedly agreed with Orange Man.

Tell me guys, who was it who signed the peace agreement with the Taliban leading to the withdrawal? And who ANNOUNCED THE WITHDRAWAL DATE months in advance?

I could have sworn I recall Candidate Trump saying how stupid it would be to announce our plans to the enemy in advance.

BUT if he'd stayed in office Trump would have pivoted and not withdrawn afterall??? That's the best you've got?

Partisan BS at its Best.
Donald Trump isn't president anymore.
 
You're trying to use "but Trump" but this mess is all Biden. Let's get back to 2021 with Biden in complete control of the current situation.
It is on President Biden that he too ignored the advice of his military advisors and decided to follow through on Trump's pledge to the American People. Joe could have changed course -- but didn't.

But for our resident Trumpets to say it's 'all on Biden' when their guy was planning the exact, same thing is beyond hypocrisy.
Getting out was the right move, but holy shit… does this look like anyone put ANY thought into how it should be done?

It looks like absolutely nothing was thought out beforehand and no steps were taken to make it somewhat successful in extracting necessary people and assets.
The wholesale collapse of the Afghan military was predictable?

Announcing U.S. withdrawal date (first May, then August) was a good idea?

And leaving so quickly after a 20-year stay shouldn't have been a problem?

You wanted out -- and you got it. Somebody must have forgotten to tell you there would be consequences.
 
Maybe. We have short attention spans.
Not for stuff like this. Same thing goes for Trump and 1/6. The visual representation lasts a long time, like Clinton on video saying "I did not have sexual relations.......) or Bush 1 saying "read my lips.....).
 
This will be Bidens legacy.

Plenty of room to criticize Biden in this for sure, but this is also recency bias. When historians look back on this it isnt going to be Obama, Trump, or Biden who get the blame, it is going to be Bush. The 3 presidents who inherited this were basically in a no win situation.
 
Not for stuff like this. Same thing goes for Trump and 1/6. The visual representation lasts a long time, like Clinton on video saying "I did not have sexual relations.......) or Bush 1 saying "read my lips.....).

Except Biden didnt start this war, Bush did.
 
It is on President Biden that he too ignored the advice of his military advisors and decided to follow through on Trump's pledge to the American People. Joe could have changed course -- but didn't.

But for our resident Trumpets to say it's 'all on Biden' when their guy was planning the exact, same thing is beyond hypocrisy.

The wholesale collapse of the Afghan military was predictable?

Announcing U.S. withdrawal date (first May, then August) was a good idea?

And leaving so quickly after a 20-year stay shouldn't have been a problem?

You wanted out -- and you got it. Somebody must have forgotten to tell you there would be consequences.
You’ve got to be the most willfully blind person I’ve ever encountered.

We withdrew troops before we had taken care of pulling out all the people and things we needed to bring with us. Whether we fixed that by evacuating non-troop personnel and assets earlier, or leaving troops in longer until that was done isn’t relevant. Either way would have worked.

That’s my entire criticism here. We left a bunch of people there who needed to get out and we knew they needed to get out.

This. Was. A. Total. Botch. Job.
 
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Like every president they can pivot based on Intel like Trump did with Syria. Everything is hearsay though...this is Biden's moment. Trump didn't have this kind of f up.. biden had his options you know as the president.

The Taliban had already started taking over parts of the country while Trump was in office. I am not saying that as a Trump critique, this was going to happen at some point no matter who the president was. But arguing about whether this is Trump or Biden's fault is conveniently leaving out the fact that this was Bush's war. We can certainly criticize Obama, Trump, and Biden, but Bush deserves the vast majority of the criticism.
 
I blame Bush for the most part, but I can't see how this moment doesn't get tied to Biden.

For the moment it will, in time when people actually study it it likely wont. Saigon fell under Ford, but almost everyone blames Vietnam on Nixon and Johnson, not Ford.
 
Joe Biden and the entire NATO community ****ed up. It's not his job to do what Trump did or what Republicans wanted or what democrats wanted. He's supposed to have the best intel and the best resources and the strongest minds. They made the call and they should have the results of that decision attached to them politically.
 
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I blame Bush for the most part, but I can't see how this moment doesn't get tied to Biden.
I agree with you but I think there is some uncertainty here. Namely that leaving Afghanistan polled really high. I just checked and a week it ago it 70% support. Today 70% disapprove of Biden's handling of the withdrawal.

So does the narrative focus on the failed withdrawal? Or the failed 20 year project? If it's an introspective deep dive on failed American foreign policy then I think he comes out a little better.

It certainly has the potential to be a turning point for his Presidency though, and only in a bad way...
 
The Taliban had already started taking over parts of the country while Trump was in office. I am not saying that as a Trump critique, this was going to happen at some point no matter who the president was. But arguing about whether this is Trump or Biden's fault is conveniently leaving out the fact that this was Bush's war. We can certainly criticize Obama, Trump, and Biden, but Bush deserves the vast majority of the criticism.
Not for the details of the evacuation.

Those 100% can’t be tied to Bush, Trump, or Obama.
 
Not for the details of the evacuation.

Those 100% can’t be tied to Bush, Trump, or Obama.

Of course it can be tied to Bush (and Trump in some ways since he was the one negotiating with the Taliban). At some point, no matter who the president was at the time, was going to have to evacuate and the country was going to go to hell. Bush put every following president in an unwinnable situation with Afghanistan. If Trump had won and evacuated in May, this would have happened in May. If we waited a few more months, or even a few more years, this would have happened. IMO it is more than fair to criticize Biden with regards to not getting visas to the interpreters and things of that nature, and certainly they miscalculated the amount of time it would take for the Taliban to take over. I think he does deserve criticism for that. But that doesnt take away from the fact that it was Bush who got us into this mess.
 
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I agree with you but I think there is some uncertainty here. Namely that leaving Afghanistan polled really high. I just checked and a week it ago it 70% support. Today 70% disapprove of Biden's handling of the withdrawal.

So does the narrative focus on the failed withdrawal? Or the failed 20 year project? If it's an introspective deep dive on failed American foreign policy then I think he comes out a little better.

It certainly has the potential to be a turning point for his Presidency though, and only in a bad way...

HE is certainly going to get a lot of blame (some fair, some probably unfair), but a lot of the people now blaming Biden were calling for the same thing when Trump was in office, and just a month or so ago Trump wanted us out and spoke about it at one of his rallies. He actually criticized Biden for waiting so long. There is going to be a lot of partisan hackery in regards to this, when in reality, both sides have plenty of blame. But the majority of the blame has to be on the guy who got us into this to begin with, which is Bush.
 
Man i'm old enough to remember when Trump was called a Xenophobe. Meanwhile Biden just called all Afghans (minus a select few in the special forces) cowards and not strong enough to fight the taliban. Looking forward to the NYT and WaPo articles.
 
Great Speech. said he’ll take the heat and not hand this War to a 5th POTUS when the Afghan forces are not willing to fight for their own country
 
Biden definitely gave a good speech other than some slurring. I hope he follows this lead and brings more and more soldiers home, not just station them elsewhere in the middle east.
 
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he's built an amazing strawman. Biden, wasn't great, but, let me tell you with Trump (if he was there) woulda been way worse.
You mean like against ISIL versus Obama?
Seriously... right there.
 
Military Intel being so off is worrying
I was talking with a friend about this yesterday. When did the apparatus of our government become this inept? He said 9/11, I said it was the WTC bombing. It used to be that we could screw up but there was a pretty high level of efficiency that could deal with those screw ups. Now, it's like they just pile 1 failure on top of another.
 
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I was talking with a friend about this yesterday. When did the apparatus of our government become this inept? He said 9/11, I said it was the WTC bombing. It used to be that we could screw up but there was a pretty high level of efficiency that could deal with those screw ups. Now, it's like they just pile 1 failure on top of another.

I think it's just publicized more--we've been pretty effing inept since Korea.
 
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