I didn't say you were talking about war, I was asking a question. All of this talk sounds pretty similar to the build up before Iraq. Not to mention our current national security advisor has certainly wanted to bomb Iran in the past and was a strong supporter and figure with the Iraq war, so it is certainly a valid concern, no matter how much you just want to write it off as being partisan.
Trump going to finish as the best president ever?
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I didn't say you were talking about war, I was asking a question. All of this talk sounds pretty similar to the build up before Iraq. Not to mention our current national security advisor has certainly wanted to bomb Iran in the past and was a strong supporter and figure with the Iraq war, so it is certainly a valid concern, no matter how much you just want to write it off as being partisan.
Do you understand the difference between an ally and an adversary? We have a bilateral treaty with the government of Saudi Arabia. Our longstanding alliance has been supported by administrations from both parties for the last 75 years.......This is about Iran not Saudi.......
It's about the hypocrisy behind supporting one, and demonizing the other. I don't care about a worthless treaty. Saudi Arabia has supported terrorism, this is a fact. Saudi funded groups were behind 9/11, this is a fact. I don't care they are considered allies (wink wink), or about some worthless treaty. I am pointing out the obvious hypocrisy.
If terrorism is the argument for sanctions against Iran, then it should also be an argument about sanctions against Saudi Arabia, and maybe we should pull out of the treaty with them. But it isn't really about that. It is about money, we all know it, so why are we even bothering pretending it is about terrorism or anything else?
Iran was probably the closest US ally in the region back in the time of the Shahs. That all ended with the Islamic revolution in 1979. It takes two to tango and Iran made it clear they weren’t dancing with the US anymore. Then there was the Iran-Iraq war where the US backed Iraq, Iran created Hezbollah and used it to attack American interests, and the regime in Iran started calling for the destruction of the Great Satan, the US. In addition to that, there were human rights issues in Iran that everyone seemed to be all up in arms about until the left decided Iran was cool again during the Obama admin. It is not accurate to say that relations with Iran boil solely down to terrorism.
It’s not apples to apples to compare Saudi Arabia and Iran or to say that both sponsored terrorism. In Saudi Arabia, you’ve got a big ruling family with very diverse factions and a few renegades that sponsored terrorism. In Iran, you’ve got a tightly controlled government where everyone marches in step and the state directly sponsors terrorism and calls for the death of America. The state regularly finds groups that oppose American interest in many venues around the world.
It is not a good evolution that so many today remove or ignore all context and create false equivalencies when they serve a political or ideological purpose. If your purpose is sound, it should be able to stand in the open amidst all facets without obfuscation.
Congrats on not making a single valid point against what he said and resorting solely to personal attacks.
I agree with your statement. Our foreign policy should reflect our American values and beliefs and serve as a beacon of hope to the rest of the world. As you said, when our purpose is sound, it should be able to stand on its own in the light of day.
But so many aspects of our behavior in the Middle East over the years -- under both Republican and Democrat administrations -- hasn't reflected our values. Propping up the Shah and arming the Afghan rebels against Russia ended up creating much more harm than good. Invading Iraq to remove non-existent WMDs also created more harm that good. And how does supporting a murderous Crown Prince reflect our values?
It's when our purpose strays from our American values that we get ourselves in trouble.
I agree with you that we should strive to be the shining city on the hill. But the fact remains that the Middle East is a dirty mess and you can’t participate their without getting dirt on you. As for Iraq, that’s a situation where all context has been removed from when the decision was made and the viewpoint that you express is an oversimplification. But then again, so much of the facts about CBRN capabilities are classified so I’m going to have to agree to disagree with you on their existence and what good has or hasn’t been done. I truly believe our soldiers did not die in vain.
Except Iran just agreed to the Iran deal, and by all accounts was acting accordingly within the framework of the deal. You can't say they werent dancing with the US anymore, when just a few years ago they agreed to terms with the US (and other countries). We were the ones that pulled out, not them. Based on that, it would seem we are the ones that arent interested in a diplomatic relationship with Iran, not the other way around.
You are also leaving out the the US and UK had quite a bit of interference in Iran throughout the years, including orchestrating a coup in the 50s to over throw a democraticaly elected government (similar to what we appear to now be doing in Venezuela). We can certainly argue that much of Iran's issue with the US was justified at our meddling in their country.
Saudi Arabia has certainly sponsored terrorism, in fact they, along with Iran, are considered the worlds leading sponsors of terrorism. They were funding the group that did 9/11 for goodness sake. I dont know why we have to deny that because we have a business relationship with them.
My only political or ideological purpose is that I am tired of us starting wars and conflicts over things that really have nothing to do with us. Iraq was a disaster, and it was started on false pretenses. Now, we are basically hearing similar things about Iran, even though again, by all accounts they were cooperating with the deal that was put in place. We just labeled the Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist group, which of course means our government can now justify war with them based on the war on terror. I dont know what the end game is with Iran, but considering Bolton has called for bombing Iran in the past, I would venture to guess there is something behind pulling out of the deal and the current rhetoric.
I agree with the the bolded, but this is also an argument that maybe we shouldnt be involved as much as we are. How many times has doing something in the middle east, ended up biting us in the ass down the road?
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You obviously joined this conversation at the 11th hour Spanky.....if you think I am going to reiterate for your benefit you are sadly mistaken.......
In Star Trek, Gene Roddenberry created "The Prime Directive" for Star Fleet which was basically, 'thou shalt not interfere in a less-advanced civilization.'
It was Sci-Fi, but there's some real truth in that. I once had a discussion with a resident of Oman who lives under an absolute monarchy. He said that it was good for Oman because the Sultan was a progressive. The thing he said that really struck me was that the people in Oman -- and across the Middle East -- are just one generation removed from tribalism. Without strong leadership, good or bad, the people will quickly revert back to their tribal nature. He said it's going to take many generations of educational and economic advancements before the people can consider an American-style democracy.
This was many years ago and the Omani was a young graduate student yet he had a much better handle on the region than all of President Bush's Middle Eastern 'experts' who naively thought we'd bring 'democracy' to the people of Iraq.
Yep. Iraq was almost 3 countries operating under the guise of being one country. As bad as Saddam was, and he was bad, having a strongman as the central figure is essentially what held the country together. It was very naive of our leaders to think that removing him would result in stable country that would welcome democracy over night, with all of the different sects and groups getting along with each other.
i would like to see us pull almost completely out of that region. we have no business in afghanistan yet we cant pull out for some reason. it seems like that region is in a constant state of fighting. makes you have more respect for the ottomans.
https://ucf.forums.rivals.com/threads/good-bye-iran-deal.62454/#post-1287108
hey guys remember that time ninja pretended to know all about the middle east politics while he plagiarized reddit? classic.
hey guys remember that time ninja pretended to know all about the middle east politics while he plagiarized reddit? classic.
Ahahahaha you truly are my bitch. Man I really must have embarrassed you for you to still bring that up.
BTW like the typical red hat moron you couldn't debate the actual point, where did I post anything that is wrong? I'll wait.
If we want to bring up actually embarrassing posts, remember that time you posted a link thinking it showed Republicans weren't racist pieces of shit...and it actually proved the opposite?
you dumb bitch
Translation: you're going to stick with personal attacks because you can't debate the actual point.
We had exchanged very pointed positions in the thread but since you were not part of them they must not have happened?
I honestly get whiplash when engaging with lefties.
A few months ago lefties were OUTRAGED! when Pres Trump was attempting to withdraw US troops from a total shithole warzone where the job was essentially done. At that time he said that he wanted to keep his promise and get the US out of foreign entanglements.
Fast forward to today, and I'm being told that it's a huge worry that Pres Trump is going to launch a war against Iran because we pulled out of the nuke deal. All while knowing that war with Iran would be 10x more destabilizing to the region than Iraq.
PS- Wasn't Bolton the Nat Sec Advisor when we were pulling troops from Syria?
The only reason you would get whiplash from this conversation is because you are trying to conflate several things together. Iraq, Syria, and Iran are not the same situations. We probably should have never gone into Iraq, but we did, so debating the strategy as to how many troops to keep their or what not, is perfectly legitimate conversation. Syria is essentially a civil war that involves a lot of bad actors. It is a terrible situation, but how involved we should be and how much good (or bad) we would do by getting more involved, is also legitimate conversation. Iran, is mostly stable at the moment (yes I am aware they have had some protests and internal conflict, but nothing approaching Syria or that type of situation). Bombing them creates an entirely new situation. Trying to act like people should have the exact same views on each situation is simply disingenuous, when the countries and circumstances surrounding each one are entirely different.
I'm not conflating anything. YOU are trying to assert that Trump is pushing the entire narrative to lead towards war with Iran, as some sort of scare tactic, yet as I've pointed out, almost every action he's taken as President has been towards the side of caution and restraint when dealing with US forces abroad.
He's pushing NATO to spend more to carry their own weight and insisting that Gulf allies also lift their own weight in dealing with regional issues on their own.
Lefties assured me that Trump was dangerous when he tried to remove troops from Syria. Therefore these same people can't also tell me that Trump is dangerous since he wants to wage war with Iran that would be 10000x more devastating than whatever our troops are doing in Syria. It's worthless fear mongering.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/ed...ngs-executions-mujtaba-al-sweikat/3552679002/
Our "allies" over in saudi Arabia just beheaded a guy on his way to WMU. His crime: attending a pro Democratic rally.
But tell me more how we are best buds.
Our "allies" over in saudi Arabia just beheaded a guy on his way to WMU. His crime: attending a pro Democratic rally.
But tell me more how we are best buds.
You are absolutely conflating them. Iran and Syria are nowhere near being the same situation, so I don't know how you are trying to say that one's opinion should be the same for each.
And not all lefties told you Trump was dangerous for removing troops from Syria. Many lefties do not want to get involved in Syria at all. Just like with people on the Right, not everyone on the left agrees with each other 100% of the time. In saying that, much of the military brass, who isn't exactly considered lefty, had issues with removing troops from Syria as well. So let's not leave that part out and make it sound like it was nothing partisans disagreeing with Trump.
The Iran deal had nothing to do with NATO. The Iran deal was done by the P5+1.
It isn't fear mongering. We are the one's the pulled out of the deal. We are the one's who just declared the Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist group. Obviously, there is some reason to do all of this, so having a discussion about it is perfectly reasonable. I don't know that it will result in bombings or a war, but there is nothing wrong with having the discussion as to why we are doing it, and it isn't unrealistic to think it could devolve into some sort of military conflict.
Ok dude. Keep thinking that the end game here is war with Iran if you want. Everyone else pretty clearly understands that the steps taken are to impose sanctions that should have been imposed years ago. This idea that it's either remain in the deal vs. war is just sloppy.
Sanctions were imposed years ago and they eventually lead to the Iran deal. And quit putting words in my mouth. I said I don't know that war is the endgame, I simply said it isn't unreasonable to think it is a possibility considering who our the national security advisor is, and considering there doesn't appear to be any real reason for pulling out of the deal.
https://www.dailywire.com/news/46807/trump-sends-clear-and-unmistakable-message-iran-ryan-saavedra
The Trump administration is sending a carrier strike group and a bomber task force to the Middle East to send a "clear and unmistakable message" in response to "a number of troubling and escalatory indications and warnings."
The Trump administration is sending a carrier strike group and a bomber task force to the Middle East to send a "clear and unmistakable message" in response to "a number of troubling and escalatory indications and warnings."
The Iranian revolution had way more to do with BP and England than it did with the US. We played a role, particularly the CIA, but it had less to do with our imperialism than BP wanting oil profits.
You start a thread about cnn being fake news, and then link to absolute trash websites like daily wire. There really aren't words in the English language to accurately describe your stupididty.
I am convinced you are not capable of intelligent conversation and you just cant help being a major douche bag.......you always make it personal rather than act civilized
If you can't understand such a simple statement on its own, I have neither the time nor the crayons to explain it in a way you will be able to understand.
You still don't get that it has absolutely nothing to do with the statement but everything to do with your abrasive, crass, asshattery delivery. You were probably that dick in 6th grade that received a report card....doesn't get along well with others....perhaps one day you will wake up, look in the mirror and say to yourself....why have I been such an assclown for so long?
Until then you can be that schmuck that we all pity...don't bother because I'm done with you
Oh no, what will I ever do without your incredible insight? Man this is just terrible.
You stupid fuking inbreds get so butthurt when someone dares to call you out on your bullshit, you are the epitome of the snowflake generation.
![[roll]](http://l.yimg.com/j/assets/img/emoticons/classic/roll.r191677.gif "roll [roll]")
Again, nobody cares about your laughing emojis. You act like you have an audience and you have none.Oh no, what will I ever do without your incredible insight? Man this is just terrible.
You stupid fuking inbreds get so butthurt when someone dares to call you out on your bullshit, you are the epitome of the snowflake generation.
When fukcing, inbred, stupid and snowflake make up 90% of your vocabulary, you have serious mental issues
Mount Trumpmore
This thread has been closed for further comments.
At exact same periods in their Presidencies, Trump is now polling better than Obama and Reagan did. Both easily won re-election.
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